When was the last time you read the Satanic Bible dude? If you've never read it, you should try some time, because it really is a good read. Far more rewarding, far more intelligent, far more relevant and, best of all, blessedly shorter than the Christian Bible.

Seriously though. Satanism not a true religion? I would like to hear your explanation on that one. So far the only people I've ever heard speak that way about it have been totally ignorant of what it was really about. We'll talk soon enough on this I'm sure, just please tell me you don't believe all that bullshit about baby killing and virgin sacrifices.

Oh, and just so you know, I'm going to say now in defense of myself that I do NOT, in any way, condone Satanism. Why? Because it IS a true religion, thus being, in my opinion, a bad, bad thing.

Damn you Quigltey! You got there first. Only an hour before me! Here I was ready to jump up in the name of my VERY RELIGIOUS stanist friends, and deffend their viewpoint(s). Oh well, 't has been done for me. One question to my Dear Annie though: If Satanism isn't a real religion, does that rule out Wicca, The pagans of old, and the Neo-pagans (neo pagans don't consider it a religion, though, so I guess it can rule them out)? Just a thought :)

Uh oh...dis is gonna be messy! :P Why, ooohhh why, has a man that has no belief in God taken to clouding his head with a degree on it? You never cease to amaze me moags! Your baffled me from the get go! Ack get go...what am I 60?

First, the denominations of Satanism are drastically more disimilar than even the Catholic denominations. Some believe in no God (wha?), others in abstract forces, others an ancient pre-Christ being (but not Satan!), and other of course in Lucifer himself, Mr. Fallen Angel. I don't accept the blanket title of Satanism over this variety. It's too widespread. The moment a JoHo (thanks for teaching me that phrase Alycia) condems a portion of their teachings, they are cast out. This makes sense to me at least because the elders know what it is that is to be believe in, and if you don't follow it, then you aren't a part of it and you can't go off and truly call yourself a JoHo. But as Satanism puts up with such a drastic variation at a fundamental level I have a hard time calling all the denomincations Satantic. Allow me to amend my statement and rephrase it as: Some Satanic denominations are more deserving of being called Satanic than others, so until it is a wee more unified, I won't call it a Religion.

Wicca's true roots from what I remeber of a Wiccian guest-speaker are tangled in the falsely-suspected atrocities of, or burned out of existance by: the Inquisition. They do their best to recreate the system of beliefs, and state it! This in itself almost wins me over. It is Wicca that I am drawn to the most and I've often considered going right on into it, but something has always held me back over the years. Don't know what. Maybe one day I will.

Admittedly, I haven't studied Satanism in depth, so I am open to reading more of it. So if anyone wants to loan me Satanic and/or Wicca texts, well... anyone? And JoHo texts because they are SO funny! More Alycia! More!

I've got the Wiccan books, Linky's got the Satanic Bible...

But there's really only one thing that I'm going to get in a pissle about, because everything else is just too farking convoluted to keep straight over what has been said. Actually, there's more than one thing, but...whatever.

WHERE THE FUCK DO YOU GET OFF SAYING NATURE IS EVIL??? I'd really like to know this, not just because I was named after the Welsh version of the Mother of Earth either, nor just because I feel some flaky New Age conncection to Nature. Nature is mindless. It has no will, it has no thought...the mudslides, earthquakes, volcanoes, tornadoes, hurricanes and other 'disastors' happen because they are natural processes that happen BECAUSE they are natural processes and for no other reason. Earthquakes? Two or more continental plates hitting or rubbing together as they drift around on the molten layer of rock beneath the Earth's crust. How else did we get those beautiful mountains that I've seen, and everything around them? Mudslides? Caused by drought, erosion, and then, suddenly, RAIN. Tornadoes and hurricans? They're caused by the wonderfully complex and extremely hard to comprehend ATMOSPHERE and the spinning of the planet that generates it, aided, in fact, by the SUN. Is a giant ball of gas that happens to power our very existence evil? How could it be? IT HAS NO WILL.

Humans can be evil yes. I won't get into what exactly makes a person evil, but I will say that they must have a will and be able to decide whether or not what it is they're doing is wrong. The natural world cannot, because the natural world has no will. It's not out to get us; we were an accident, most of the life around us was an accident. Any will that anyone percieves the natural world as having is an anthropomorphic personification. And you don't need to be taking a bloody religious studdies degree to work that one out.

As for Satansim...last time I checked, they did prey and talk to Satan on a regular basis, and named him Satan, and refer to him as Satan, and call themselves the Church of SATAN, and therefore, Satanists. They DON'T sacrifice babies or virgins and they're so 'ununified' because there's a lot of bull shit hitting the fan, especially from the well established Christian religions because they see Satan as being the personification of Evil. Therefore, there's a lot of really confused wannabe's out there that think killing cats is a good thing and are really only doing this to rebel. The Church of Satan is as organized as any church, as far as I can tell.

"falsely-suspected atrocities" of the Inquisition? No, not falsely suspected. It wasn't just done to those at the 'roots of wicca', it was done to EVERYBODY. ANYONE who stood up for themselves was usually tortured and burned. I don't know about you, but the Wheel sounds pretty disgusting. Unless you like having your limbs broken and threaded through the spokes of a wheel and then rolled around on it. Or the Rack, being streached and streached until your joints dislocate and your muscles tear from your bones, and all you can do is scream, scream, scream "I repent! I repent!" hearing nothing in the sudden silence but the echoes dying away into nothingness as you realize that this man of God doing this to you actually thinks that by killing you in this way, that by doing this he is not only serving his God in the only way he knows, but is enjoying it. And he is laughing.

Or the Iron Maiden. Shoved into the dark to be sqewered upon thousands of needle-sharp spikes, with only your eyes seen above because the priests like to watch your eyes for signs of your repentance...not for me, thank you.

These acts aren't 'falsly suspected'. For crying out loud, at Medieval Times, there's the friggin' "dungeon", where they have all these devices up with little plaques next to them explaining their use. How wonderfully quaint. It made me sick to my stomach.

Humans are evil, yes. Gods, I don't know about because I'm not sure if there actually are any. That could change. But nature? Get real.

Go hump a tree!!!!!!!!

Messy's a wee bit of an understatement, don't ya think? Hehehehehe

Whoa! Mis-communication here! Queenie (ahem, All Hail and Bow Down to the Devine Queen of the Universe), you'll notice I didn't say "Nature" was Evil. I said one of the forms of Evil takes place as a natural occurance, IF you define Evil as: the harming or destruction of a living being.

That's my blanket term for Evil, which I failed to communicate before; however, with a minor adjustment that not only screws up my previous arguments, but also aligns itself with the majority of views, the definition can be changed to: the intentional harming or destruction of a living being.

This addition of the word "intentional", rules out Nature as being Evil, as you rightfully point out for Nature has no guiding Will, thus no intent. It is a series of fantastically complex reactions that started with who knows what, and will always be in motion.

Why do I use such a broad base for the term Evil, because it works. It lets nothing slip through the cracks, like Conor turning around with a knife and accidentally slitting my jugular, killing me in a spray of blood. ("Are tigers drawn to blood?... because I'm envisioning a spray....") There are levels of Evil, but here the destruction of myself, and the emotional harm to my family and friends is still created, the same way the Black Plague ravaged Europe, causing unquantifiable grief. These harmful events cannot possibly be categorized as Good, and in Good and Evil, well, when dealing in binary, if it's not one, it's zero. It a cut-and-dried format of thinking; admittedly, it is impractically applied to the real world.

As for the Satanists, for my personal qualifications, God and/or Satan have to be invovled at some point, plain and simple. The moment you rule out God as a player, you're not a Satanist for without God there are no Angels, thus no Fallen Angels, and the moment you rule out Satan's existance, you've struck everying out of the title of your religion save the "ism", those stupid fucks. So, IF the Church of Satan does NOT recognize these other factions as denominations, I recognize the Church of Satan as a Religion. Anyone wanna dig up some facts for me here to whether or not they do? Thanks.

These are opinions and personal beliefs, not facts, dogma, or carved in stone -- aye, I can change my mind if I see reason to. I would love to read more Wicca books Queenie, and Linky, if I could borrow your Satanic texts, I'd be very grateful.

I welcome all continued flaming =) As long as no one walks away personally affronted, as that is most definately not my intent. That would be Evil. ;)

Didn't mean to go ape...not feeling good. Linky's bronchitis has finially caught up with me and at the moment I really couldn't care about much of anything.

I have fuzzy pants.

Tylenol is fun. Especially the night time stuff.

Anyway, I think the Satanists just see Satan as a bit of a misunderstood guy who really isn't as bad as the Christians make him out to be.

I know people have more than one definition of evil. But I get single minded sometimes, which I suppose is a trap fall of being human. Can't be helped. I try, but...farking human nature gets in the way...

Now I'm making excuses for things I should be able to overcome. Blast. It was the calling me Queenie.

Dickhead.

Toodles!

Awww, we made up... unless that was the Tylenol speaking.